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	<title>Comments on: Do We Really Care About Democracy? #IranElection</title>
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		<title>By: romath</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-11386</link>
		<dc:creator>romath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-11386</guid>
		<description>While I don&#039;t know whether there was widespread fraud or not, tho I suspect there was, I do agree that all this reporting in the U.S. has little to do with a love of &quot;democracy.&quot;  

Much more important in the long run, however, is seeing clearly the political substance of the conflict within Iran.  At the leadership level, this is a fight, a falling out, between wings of the fundamentalist Islamic leadership.  On one side is current Ayatollah Khamenei; on the other, the &quot;reform&quot; opposition, those who wish to restore the approach of the initial leader, Ayatollah Khomeini!  To make the point more starkly, consider this opposition led by Mir Hussein Moussavi.  Under Moussavi&#039;s leadership as prime minister through the 1980s, many thousands of Kurds, women&#039;s rights activists, leftists and labor leaders and militants were killed in prisons and thrown into mass graves, and the war against Iraq pursued.  And in the late 1990s, student protests were brutally repressed by another of Moussavi&#039;s close allies, Mohammed Katami, with his &quot;reform&quot; government.  Another close ally of Mouusavi is Ali Rafsanjani, considered the richest man in Iran and known as the &quot;pistachio king.&quot;  Moussavi and Rafsanjani favor &quot;opening up&quot; the economy through privitization and foreign (imperialist) investment (sound familiar?).  Some reform movement for democracy!   Unfortunately at this time, there doesn&#039;t appear to be any organized forces among the demonstrators that are politically independent of and in opposition to these &#039;reformers.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don&#8217;t know whether there was widespread fraud or not, tho I suspect there was, I do agree that all this reporting in the U.S. has little to do with a love of &#8220;democracy.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Much more important in the long run, however, is seeing clearly the political substance of the conflict within Iran.  At the leadership level, this is a fight, a falling out, between wings of the fundamentalist Islamic leadership.  On one side is current Ayatollah Khamenei; on the other, the &#8220;reform&#8221; opposition, those who wish to restore the approach of the initial leader, Ayatollah Khomeini!  To make the point more starkly, consider this opposition led by Mir Hussein Moussavi.  Under Moussavi&#8217;s leadership as prime minister through the 1980s, many thousands of Kurds, women&#8217;s rights activists, leftists and labor leaders and militants were killed in prisons and thrown into mass graves, and the war against Iraq pursued.  And in the late 1990s, student protests were brutally repressed by another of Moussavi&#8217;s close allies, Mohammed Katami, with his &#8220;reform&#8221; government.  Another close ally of Mouusavi is Ali Rafsanjani, considered the richest man in Iran and known as the &#8220;pistachio king.&#8221;  Moussavi and Rafsanjani favor &#8220;opening up&#8221; the economy through privitization and foreign (imperialist) investment (sound familiar?).  Some reform movement for democracy!   Unfortunately at this time, there doesn&#8217;t appear to be any organized forces among the demonstrators that are politically independent of and in opposition to these &#8216;reformers.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: charles saunders</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-11220</link>
		<dc:creator>charles saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-11220</guid>
		<description>Your article is true. What can I add except to note what former CIA AGENT and Peace activist(&quot;Veterans for Peace&quot; member), Ray McGovern said recently.  The mobs rioting in Iran have all the earmarks of a CIA created incident!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your article is true. What can I add except to note what former CIA AGENT and Peace activist(&#8221;Veterans for Peace&#8221; member), Ray McGovern said recently.  The mobs rioting in Iran have all the earmarks of a CIA created incident!</p>
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		<title>By: Quitters Stick With It. Winners Quit. &#124; mchuge</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-11094</link>
		<dc:creator>Quitters Stick With It. Winners Quit. &#124; mchuge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 03:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-11094</guid>
		<description>[...] The importance of Twitter and #iranelection called into question. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The importance of Twitter and #iranelection called into question. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Burris</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10771</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10771</guid>
		<description>Dear HRW:
I thouroughly enjoy reading your excerpts.  I think you made indpeth progress in nailing down what is currently transpiring in and upon the Iranian nation and the world at large - looking in.  This election was/is not about ahmadinejad nor mousavi, it is simply about &quot;money and power&quot; both of which the current Monarchy of Khamenei has very smartley planned for many years and will do what ever is necessary, to keep to them selves and keep from the Rafsanjani Dynasty to to take away from them.  Mojtaba Khamenei is the at the centre of the command and control of the Khamenei Monarchy, has the IRGC (IR Revolutionaqry Guard Corps) on their payroll of domestic protection, and Russia which provides them International consultancy and support on the global front.  Iran is a major player together with Russia and Belrus as main members of the newly established and soon to be announced OPEC-like GAS Consortium for the region.  

I turn your attention to a memo just received from a &quot;very&quot; reliable source well embedded in the current Regime in Iran clearly explaining the initial hours and day following the election:

On evening of 22 Khordad 1388 (12 July 2009), the Ministry of Interior (State Department/Home Office) based on the final and definitive estimates of the result of a number of votes received from the election ballots from nationwide voting centres, officially awarded Mir-Hossein Mousavi the win election (of 10th term of the IROI presidential elections) directly to Ali Khamenei.  Ali Khamenei accepted Mousavi&#039;s victory but with the precondition that Mousavi does not rush for the announcement of his win so as to avoid causing any tensions within the government and his supporters. 
At the dawn of 23 Khordad 1388 (13 June 2009) a few hours after the Ministry of Interior advised Khamenei of Mousavi&#039;s win, immediately after morning prayers, based on plan blue printed in advance, Khamenei was taken from &quot;Beyt Rahbari (HQ of Supreme Leader)&quot; in Pasteur Square, Tehran and transferred to a predefined location in North of Tehran, in Aghdassieh.

While in transit to North of Tehran, the IRGC command deployed at the HQ of Supreme Leader advised Khamenei through Mojtaba Khamenei (his son) that the reason for this transfer is because of a &quot;Condition Grey&quot; and the transfer is as per instruction from &quot;IRGC Motahari Central Command&quot;.    During the transit, the special force battalions 1, 2 and 3 along with protection team of Khamenei&#039;s family and the Physical Protection Team plus in addition to the Check and Neutralize Team were completely transferred from the HQ of Supreme Leader to the destination North Tehran where Khamenei was headed.

On completion of transfer of Khamenei, the expansion of coup d’état operations (which had started the previous day) was initiated throughout the city under code name &quot;Maneuvre Eghtedar (Authority Maneuver)&quot;.  Simultaneously with this maneuver which surprised and uncovered its true nature as a coup d’état, military and special forces coup d’état units deployed throughout the city.
Although forces behind the coup d’état code named &quot;Maneuver Authority&quot; all were equipped with black police uniform and the maneuver was given the tone being run by the police but the leadership and command was led by a Council which consisted of senior IRGC commanders and the head of the police force, &quot;Ahmadi-Moghaddam&quot;. The majority of the commanders implementing the maneuver were also commanders of the Revolutionary Guards were not police commanders. &quot;Mojtaba&quot; second son of Ali Khamenei represented the Supreme Leader&#039;s Office who was in direct contact with the Council for the coordination and implementation of the coup. The Council having predicted resistance by Mir-Hossein Mousavi and his camp had prepared in advance an initial (work in progress) arrest list which was completed at later stages of the coup.


It is not clear at this juncture if on 13 June 2009, during the implementation of the coup in Tehran if Khamenei was provided with updates and progress reports with regard to the status of the coup implementation in Tehran, however, what is crystal clear is that Khamenei through his son Mojtaba was in direct contact with those in charge of the coup and that he became a supporter of the coup movement after he was bri efed earlier in the day.  What is become increasingly clear is the whole planning for the coup may have been a premeditated plan by Mojtaba to remain arms length and avoid having been on record having given the initial instruction to initiate the coup and for public consumption purposes (and damage control purposes which may come in handy at a later stage) provide the impression that he/Mojtaba had only entered the scene and became aware of the coup at a later stage after the coup had become a foregone conclusion and that he/Mojtaba only became a supporter of the coup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear HRW:<br />
I thouroughly enjoy reading your excerpts.  I think you made indpeth progress in nailing down what is currently transpiring in and upon the Iranian nation and the world at large &#8211; looking in.  This election was/is not about ahmadinejad nor mousavi, it is simply about &#8220;money and power&#8221; both of which the current Monarchy of Khamenei has very smartley planned for many years and will do what ever is necessary, to keep to them selves and keep from the Rafsanjani Dynasty to to take away from them.  Mojtaba Khamenei is the at the centre of the command and control of the Khamenei Monarchy, has the IRGC (IR Revolutionaqry Guard Corps) on their payroll of domestic protection, and Russia which provides them International consultancy and support on the global front.  Iran is a major player together with Russia and Belrus as main members of the newly established and soon to be announced OPEC-like GAS Consortium for the region.  </p>
<p>I turn your attention to a memo just received from a &#8220;very&#8221; reliable source well embedded in the current Regime in Iran clearly explaining the initial hours and day following the election:</p>
<p>On evening of 22 Khordad 1388 (12 July 2009), the Ministry of Interior (State Department/Home Office) based on the final and definitive estimates of the result of a number of votes received from the election ballots from nationwide voting centres, officially awarded Mir-Hossein Mousavi the win election (of 10th term of the IROI presidential elections) directly to Ali Khamenei.  Ali Khamenei accepted Mousavi&#8217;s victory but with the precondition that Mousavi does not rush for the announcement of his win so as to avoid causing any tensions within the government and his supporters.<br />
At the dawn of 23 Khordad 1388 (13 June 2009) a few hours after the Ministry of Interior advised Khamenei of Mousavi&#8217;s win, immediately after morning prayers, based on plan blue printed in advance, Khamenei was taken from &#8220;Beyt Rahbari (HQ of Supreme Leader)&#8221; in Pasteur Square, Tehran and transferred to a predefined location in North of Tehran, in Aghdassieh.</p>
<p>While in transit to North of Tehran, the IRGC command deployed at the HQ of Supreme Leader advised Khamenei through Mojtaba Khamenei (his son) that the reason for this transfer is because of a &#8220;Condition Grey&#8221; and the transfer is as per instruction from &#8220;IRGC Motahari Central Command&#8221;.    During the transit, the special force battalions 1, 2 and 3 along with protection team of Khamenei&#8217;s family and the Physical Protection Team plus in addition to the Check and Neutralize Team were completely transferred from the HQ of Supreme Leader to the destination North Tehran where Khamenei was headed.</p>
<p>On completion of transfer of Khamenei, the expansion of coup d’état operations (which had started the previous day) was initiated throughout the city under code name &#8220;Maneuvre Eghtedar (Authority Maneuver)&#8221;.  Simultaneously with this maneuver which surprised and uncovered its true nature as a coup d’état, military and special forces coup d’état units deployed throughout the city.<br />
Although forces behind the coup d’état code named &#8220;Maneuver Authority&#8221; all were equipped with black police uniform and the maneuver was given the tone being run by the police but the leadership and command was led by a Council which consisted of senior IRGC commanders and the head of the police force, &#8220;Ahmadi-Moghaddam&#8221;. The majority of the commanders implementing the maneuver were also commanders of the Revolutionary Guards were not police commanders. &#8220;Mojtaba&#8221; second son of Ali Khamenei represented the Supreme Leader&#8217;s Office who was in direct contact with the Council for the coordination and implementation of the coup. The Council having predicted resistance by Mir-Hossein Mousavi and his camp had prepared in advance an initial (work in progress) arrest list which was completed at later stages of the coup.</p>
<p>It is not clear at this juncture if on 13 June 2009, during the implementation of the coup in Tehran if Khamenei was provided with updates and progress reports with regard to the status of the coup implementation in Tehran, however, what is crystal clear is that Khamenei through his son Mojtaba was in direct contact with those in charge of the coup and that he became a supporter of the coup movement after he was bri efed earlier in the day.  What is become increasingly clear is the whole planning for the coup may have been a premeditated plan by Mojtaba to remain arms length and avoid having been on record having given the initial instruction to initiate the coup and for public consumption purposes (and damage control purposes which may come in handy at a later stage) provide the impression that he/Mojtaba had only entered the scene and became aware of the coup at a later stage after the coup had become a foregone conclusion and that he/Mojtaba only became a supporter of the coup.</p>
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		<title>By: Israeli Effort to Destabilize Iran Via Twitter #IranElection &#171; NaturallyMadNews</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10768</link>
		<dc:creator>Israeli Effort to Destabilize Iran Via Twitter #IranElection &#171; NaturallyMadNews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10768</guid>
		<description>[...] Do We Really Care About Democracy? #IranElection [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Do We Really Care About Democracy? #IranElection [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Burris</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10734</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10734</guid>
		<description>ChartingStock1, may i ask why you felt obligated to filter my message of this morning, did my extensive information make you uncomfortable and you possibly felt that it degraded you personally for your comments here. if not surely you will publish my comments.  i hope you are not an arm of the islamic republic of iran and scensoring information as it may serve your purpose. I&#039;m appauled</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ChartingStock1, may i ask why you felt obligated to filter my message of this morning, did my extensive information make you uncomfortable and you possibly felt that it degraded you personally for your comments here. if not surely you will publish my comments.  i hope you are not an arm of the islamic republic of iran and scensoring information as it may serve your purpose. I&#8217;m appauled</p>
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		<title>By: exotraxx division: discover US Disneyland - a reader dedicated to my US American friends</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10730</link>
		<dc:creator>exotraxx division: discover US Disneyland - a reader dedicated to my US American friends</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10730</guid>
		<description>[...] a &#8216;non-political&#8217; website, Charting Stocks, answers its own question &#8220;Do We Really Care About Democracy?&#8221; like [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a &#8216;non-political&#8217; website, Charting Stocks, answers its own question &#8220;Do We Really Care About Democracy?&#8221; like [...]</p>
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		<title>By: HRW177</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10728</link>
		<dc:creator>HRW177</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10728</guid>
		<description>Tony, do you have any more hate to spew?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony, do you have any more hate to spew?</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10726</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10726</guid>
		<description>No kind of Democracy will survive in any Islamic country. Most muslims are masochists who enjoy being abused and degraded by sadist mullahs and dictators. They believe that if their limbs and genitals and heads are chopped off, they will reach heaven faster, and that if they don&#039;t bomb the infidels and non muslims, they would go to hell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No kind of Democracy will survive in any Islamic country. Most muslims are masochists who enjoy being abused and degraded by sadist mullahs and dictators. They believe that if their limbs and genitals and heads are chopped off, they will reach heaven faster, and that if they don&#8217;t bomb the infidels and non muslims, they would go to hell.</p>
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		<title>By: HRW177</title>
		<link>http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/do-we-really-care-about-democracy-iranelection/comment-page-1/#comment-10711</link>
		<dc:creator>HRW177</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 00:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chartingstocks.net/?p=1930#comment-10711</guid>
		<description>Chris, why don&#039;t you look at my posts in some of chartingstocks&#039;s other articles and you will see that this is not my attitude.  First of all, two wrongs don&#039;t make a right and we should care about injustices where ever they are taking place.  I&#039;ve been open about America&#039;s human rights abuses abroad, but currently the government&#039;s abuses domestically are nothing compared to those of the IRI.  I agree that wire-tapping should stop and Obama already issued an executive order that effectively banned torture, although the details still have to be worked out.  Obama is also trying to close Gitmo and major military operations in Iraq are set to end on August 31, 2010, although I realize we are going to still keep forces there.  This is a start, but there is always room for improvement.  Putting an end to wire-tapping and military commissions would also be encouraging.  Reducing the military budget which now accounts for half of all world military spending is also a must.  Still we citizens have the ability to do things like speak out against the government and follow the religion or lack there of of our choosing.  Should we not be upset when other human beings are denied these rights?  I&#039;m only for US government intervention in the event of a human rights catastrophe (think Tiananmen Square scale here) and even then it should be as part of a broader international effort.  Otherwise, this issue should be left up to Iranians alone although private citizens from foreign nations are allowed to and probably should lend their support to the opposition imo.  Basically, this issue should be resolved by the Iranian people alone or by the international community (UN) working in conjunction with the people.  The US was meant to spread democracy upon its founding, but it was meant to do so by good example and peaceful diplomacy and I am in favor of this approach.  Of course, the US hasn&#039;t provided a good example, but we should start to.  As I&#039;ve also mentioned the IRI&#039;s human rights abuses are well-documented.  This isn&#039;t just the western media criticizing the regime nor is it just western HROs, but also Iranian human rights activists like Akbar Ganji  and Shirin Ebadi have spoken out.  They have been imprisoned and intimidated by the IRI for speaking out in the past.  Grand Ayatollah Montazeri ( has been imprisoned as well) also has spoken out and he was Khomeini&#039;s heir apparent before speaking out in the 80s when Khomeini was having thousands of political prisoners executed.  These abuses by all indications are real and I believe there is a case for fraud, so the Iranians have a right to protest.  We also have a right to support them as they struggle against the regime that is behind these abuses and that may have committed fraud.  One could also argue the IRI&#039;s constitutional framework (i.e. Article 13 only protects three minority religions, which leaves  individuals a part of other faiths like the Bahai faith open to government-sanctioned persecution) makes things inherently unfair, which would also give the people another reason to protest in support of reform.  Now, I apologize if I came off as arrogant in my other posts because that wasn&#039;t my intention.  I truly want the Iranian people to receive the fundamental freedoms that all people deserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, why don&#8217;t you look at my posts in some of chartingstocks&#8217;s other articles and you will see that this is not my attitude.  First of all, two wrongs don&#8217;t make a right and we should care about injustices where ever they are taking place.  I&#8217;ve been open about America&#8217;s human rights abuses abroad, but currently the government&#8217;s abuses domestically are nothing compared to those of the IRI.  I agree that wire-tapping should stop and Obama already issued an executive order that effectively banned torture, although the details still have to be worked out.  Obama is also trying to close Gitmo and major military operations in Iraq are set to end on August 31, 2010, although I realize we are going to still keep forces there.  This is a start, but there is always room for improvement.  Putting an end to wire-tapping and military commissions would also be encouraging.  Reducing the military budget which now accounts for half of all world military spending is also a must.  Still we citizens have the ability to do things like speak out against the government and follow the religion or lack there of of our choosing.  Should we not be upset when other human beings are denied these rights?  I&#8217;m only for US government intervention in the event of a human rights catastrophe (think Tiananmen Square scale here) and even then it should be as part of a broader international effort.  Otherwise, this issue should be left up to Iranians alone although private citizens from foreign nations are allowed to and probably should lend their support to the opposition imo.  Basically, this issue should be resolved by the Iranian people alone or by the international community (UN) working in conjunction with the people.  The US was meant to spread democracy upon its founding, but it was meant to do so by good example and peaceful diplomacy and I am in favor of this approach.  Of course, the US hasn&#8217;t provided a good example, but we should start to.  As I&#8217;ve also mentioned the IRI&#8217;s human rights abuses are well-documented.  This isn&#8217;t just the western media criticizing the regime nor is it just western HROs, but also Iranian human rights activists like Akbar Ganji  and Shirin Ebadi have spoken out.  They have been imprisoned and intimidated by the IRI for speaking out in the past.  Grand Ayatollah Montazeri ( has been imprisoned as well) also has spoken out and he was Khomeini&#8217;s heir apparent before speaking out in the 80s when Khomeini was having thousands of political prisoners executed.  These abuses by all indications are real and I believe there is a case for fraud, so the Iranians have a right to protest.  We also have a right to support them as they struggle against the regime that is behind these abuses and that may have committed fraud.  One could also argue the IRI&#8217;s constitutional framework (i.e. Article 13 only protects three minority religions, which leaves  individuals a part of other faiths like the Bahai faith open to government-sanctioned persecution) makes things inherently unfair, which would also give the people another reason to protest in support of reform.  Now, I apologize if I came off as arrogant in my other posts because that wasn&#8217;t my intention.  I truly want the Iranian people to receive the fundamental freedoms that all people deserve.</p>
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