JPost Removes the Evidence and Issues a Response #IranElection
Wednesday, June 17, 2009 17:30
In response to our recent post, which traced the bulk of the #IranElection twitter spam back to an article in JPost rather than “Iranian Students”, the Jerusalem newspaper has removed the evidence by altering their June 14th article (luckily, we kept the screenshot). JPost has also written a response to our allegations.
We argued that the onslaught of #IranElection tweets may not have been the work of “Iranian students” as claimed but rather a group of people promoting the political interests of the right-wing of Israeli politics with the aim of magnifying the social unrest which followed the Iranian election.
In researching the origin of the thousands of tweets and retweets, we noticed that only a hand full of people were at the core of the #IranElection spam. After preforming a simple google search which sought to find when/where 2 of these people were mentioned together we found a JPost article which became the basis of our assertion.
Only hours after creating their twitter profiles, JPost ran an article which instructed their readers to follow on twitter for up to date coverage of the Iran election. JPost was the first and only major news source that posted the links to these twitter accounts which would later become the source of most of the #IranElection spam.
Here is how the article looked at the time (Click for a better shot):
And how it looks today: Notice that the 4th paragraph no longer provides the links to the 3 spammers which went on to become the source of much of the tweets.
Now, I realize that I’ll be accused of somehow doctoring the first image so I’ve also attached a screenshot of the Google search results (see below) for “StopAhmadi AND IranRiggedElect,” which are two of the three spammers. You can also check the search results for yourself (At this time google is still indexing the old version).
NEW: Here’s an updated screen shot WITH THE URL SHOWING. (Yes, I’ve been accused of making a “Fake” JPost website.)
Of course, the editing of their original article begs another important question. WHY?? If my accusations were so ridiculous why would JPost remove the evidence which was at the core of my argument?? This does not help their case.
In response to our article, JPost Managing Editor Shani Rosenfelder writes “Our coverage of events in Iran is guided solely by professional journalistic considerations.”
The newspaper, in an attempt to debunk our allegations, writes:
“The “proof” [of our article] cited was an online entry published on Sunday on the Post’s “The Persian Abyss” blog, in which three very active Iranian Twitterers, whose tweets were widely circulated, were mentioned as part of an online documentation of Iranians’ reaction to the election results on social media outlets.”
At the time of that article, however, those three members had JUST JOINED twitter only hours earlier. Furthermore, JPost changed their original post which cites those “three very active Iranian Twitterers.” They disappeared. They are referring to that portion which they removed.
JPost was nice enough to refrain from personal attacks and even included the disclaimer:
“The writer allows that he does not think that the violence in Iran is a “Jewish conspiracy” because he is “not an anti-semite” and even claims that he is “half-Jewish.” Instead he maintains that “these are the workings of the extreme right-wing of Israeli politics” since “Israel perceives Iran as an enemy, more so than any other nation.”
I do appreciate the decency of the writer and while I find the article to be fair in its tone it neglected to directly answer the lingering questions -
Why did they run a story about 3 people who just joined twitter? “…part of an online documentation of Iranians’ reaction” does not explain why it was newsworthy to promote the profiles of 3 twitter members who just joined the site.
How did they find out about them so fast?
How were they sure that the profiles were authentic? These profiles were only hours old and had no names attached to them. They had no time to verify that these were, indeed, Iranian students.
And the latest:
Why did they remove the evidence if my allegations were so ridiculous?
[Updated Question] Ask yourself: Did JPost simply supply their readers with fair/unbiased twitter sources with names like @StopAhmadi @IranRiggedElect @Change_For_Iran?? Just look at the names of these “Students.” Iran_Rigged_election (before the first allegations of a rigged election even surfaced)? The 3 profile names ALONE is proof that JPost had an agenda.
Related posts:
Proof: Israeli Effort to Destabilize Iran Via Twitter | Charting Stocks says:
June 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
[...] 7] JPost removes the evidence and issues a [...]
o says:
June 17th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
dude. you know nothing about Iran.
Change_for_Iran gave minute by minute updates of the attacks on the student dorms.
Everything he said came true and is now verified by all the major new sources, 2 days later.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 17th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
“O” again: Why did they run a story about 3 people who just joined twitter? “…part of an online documentation of Iranians’ reaction” does not explain why it was newsworthy to promote the profiles of 3 twitter members who just joined the site.
How did they find out about them so fast?
How were they sure that the profiles were authentic? These profiles were only hours old and had no names attached to them. They had no time to verify that these were, indeed, Iranian students.
And the latest:
Why did they remove the evidence (if my allegations were so ridiculous)?
Fred B says:
June 17th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Get ready for Megaphone in this comments section!
http://giyus.org/
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378505678&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
chartingstocks1 says:
June 17th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Not again!!! they are a persistent bunch. have to give them that
Kat says:
June 17th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Ahhhh… I get it now. You don’t really care if your questions are answered, or if you hurt anyone while you “play detective,” just as long as you can generate an audience for your conspiracy theories… and your website.
Is business that bad?
I’m certain now that mine is not the only comment you have decided not to show (I submitted it twice), as it’s hard to imagine more people have not expressed their thoughts on your thread-bare theories.
But that’s okay. My comment really was meant just for you.
So I have no expectation of this one being posted either. I do, however, have a response for you to “JPost Removes the Evidence…”
Did it ever occur to you that the JPost blog edited their original post for the very same reason given in my first comment to you (you know, the one you won’t post).
What’s the reason?
THE SAFETY OF THE IRANIAN TWEETERS!!!
Here is what’s in the article you claim is their “response” to your “Proof” post (hardly a response… they brushed you off as a “Conspiracy theorist”):
*~*~*~*~*~*~*
“The volume and potency of the information circulated on Twitter has become so powerful that Iranian Twitterers have pleaded with their followers not to retweet (forward) their messages using their usernames, as Iranian forces have confiscated computers, laptops and cellphones, EFFECTIVELY PUTTING THEIR LIVES AT RISK.
“Twitterers have also reported that THERE HAVE BEEN ARRESTS following wide retweets of their details, a development confirmed on Wednesday by international news services.”
*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Surely you have seen the images & videos, and read the writings that contain the violent actions taken by the Iranian Police, the IRG, and the Basij. They are serious about tamping down the unrest, and will not stop short of killing, as evidenced by the growing number of people who have already lost their lives.
I have seen webpages disappear that had the names of dozens of Iranian Tweeters, and bloggers have been modifying their posts over the past couple of days to remove Twitter names there as well.
How can that be so hard for you to understand?
PEOPLE’S LIVES ARE AT STAKE!
And your question, “Why did they run a story about 3 people who just joined twitter?” was already answered in my original comment (the one you won’t post).
But yet again, it is hard for you to understand how a blogger for the JPost could do some serious research (unlike yours) into social media sites, specifically to see how Iranians are using the new modes of media, and then come across some passionate citizens/students who wrote compelling tweets about what they were experiencing, then for that blogger to comment on those Tweeters in their story on SOCIAL MEDIA, and leave a link to a site with a list of other Iranian Tweeters as well. (If you need to ask why Israelis would be interested in what Iranians are doing, then you need to start reading some history books.)
It may have escaped your notice, but that original story at JPost WAS A BLOG POST!
BLOG = SOCIAL MEDIA
Get the connection yet?
Here’s something else you haven’t yet grasped…
The blog entry was NOT ABOUT THOSE 3 Tweeters… it was about the way SOCIAL MEDIA was being used, which is REAL TIME MEDIA!
It does not take days or weeks or months to discover what is happening on the other side of the world anymore. It is practically instantaneous, especially with the huge numbers of “Citizen Journalists.”
It didn’t matter if JPost mentioned those 3 Iranians Tweeters or not… they would have been noticed by other media just as quickly, because what they wrote were interesting and continuous first-person accounts of an unexpected and UNFOLDING EVENT. The Main Stream Media understands the POWER OF SOCIAL MEDIA, so they will tap into it and take advantage of it every chance they get… and they will always look for the more prolific writers who seem to have a grasp of what is going on.
DOES THAT NOT MAKE SENSE TO YOU YET?
Twitter allows the Main Stream Media and their readers/viewers to see/hear/understand what’s happening just about anywhere in ways they never have been able to before!
When there are people who are sharing their stories about what’s going on in their world at that moment, and when those people happen to be in the middle of a War, a Natural Disaster, a disputed Election, you name it… PEOPLE TAKE NOTICE! They want to know more!
On a related matter, others have written this to you in the “Proof” post, but it bears repeating here (because you still don’t seem to understand)…
When something MAJOR is occurring, people in the thick of it will open new Twitter accounts if they don’t have them already OR if they want to protect their identity, and they’ll immediately start tweeting about what’s going on.
You are protective of your identity at this site. Why? Something to hide? Working for another government? A spy? Or are you just scared someone will track you down and rough you up for the bad trading advice you give?
Oh, hell… don’t you get it YET?
These people need their anonymity NOW MORE THAN EVER. But you prefer to paint them as foreign agents who are stirring up trouble in order to overturn a government. And you appear not to care if they get hurt–or KILLED–while you play your ridiculously selfish game of “Pseudo-Espionage.”
Your dangerous conspiracy theories serve no one but yourself.
I could write more, but frankly, you’re not worth another minute of my time.
There is little regard on my part for people who portray themselves as being intelligent, yet knowingly–and perhaps intentionally–do harm to others.
All I can say is…
Get a Life!
And wipe the blood off your hands.
fodders says:
June 17th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Kat
they will only be in danger if Mossad decides to eliminate their tracks
nolocontendere says:
June 17th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Kat could have distilled the rant down to “shut up and believe the propaganda”.
justme says:
June 18th, 2009 at 12:20 am
“[David Saranga] said on Tuesday that Twitter, the short messaging website, has revolutionized Israeli diplomacy and become a leading advocacy apparatus.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093614.html
TDV says:
June 18th, 2009 at 2:45 am
My take from the article is that they were reporting it BECAUSE the “spammers” had only joined “mere hours ago and have already amassed thousands of followers.”
It seems pretty obvious to me that the angle on that bit was to not how quickly the anti Ahmadinejad sentiments were spreading.
While these posters do have all the characteristics of sockpuppets and viral miscreants, there is zero substantive evidence that the JPost is in on it or that they are Israelis. Without an IP number and a trace, which even then could be spoofed, there is no telling who is behind these posts.
That said, I appreciate your sense of smell. And it is nothing for Mossad or the CIA or countless PR firms to astroturf and sockpuppet their way around these sites. I’ve spent many hours trying to snag them, with very limited success.
But come on dude. The factoids about these posters are interesting. But the empirical evidence that nails them to the Israelis is non-existent. I have little doubt that the Israelis and the CIA are working this. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that they are behind it. And believe me, I’ll be looking. But you need to stick to what you can prove.
cheers and good luck
TDV
Penny says:
June 18th, 2009 at 5:12 am
did any other news source besides the Jerusalem Post report on the 3 twitter users?
Anyone see it reported in another media outlet, until after JP and charting stocks??
Pierre says:
June 18th, 2009 at 5:54 am
You are really incredible
Up until now, most of the online media websites just keep repeting the same informations and never take the time to analyse it, do some investigation and see beneath it. You did it!
Don’t let ad hominem attacks affect you, the lack of constructive and convincing responses to your basic questions prooves you’re not wrong.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 7:00 am
thanks Pierre..the attacks dont bother me.. i would rather they tried to answer the basic questions I raised than to attack me personally…
Bard says:
June 18th, 2009 at 7:01 am
It’s come to the point where we cannot trust ANY of the mainstream media. Where I live in a large north american city they’ve started handing out two newspapers (both owned by the same person) for free – but it’s getting to the point where people shake their head and say ‘no’ when they are being offered them – purely because they’re full of propaganda. Sites like this that present COGENT ARGUMENTS and ANALYSIS mean more than simple repetition of lies we see in the mainstream media.
Bard says:
June 18th, 2009 at 7:05 am
@penny – yeah i’ve seen the tv here talking about how ‘protesters are using technology like twitter’ as evidence of the elections being rigged. Then again a zionist owns the tv station.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 7:37 am
@Bard thank you for the comments. but please lets try to keep this a healthy debate based on “Cogent Arguments” as you rightfully point out and not some international Zionist thing. Major TV stations are owned by huge conglomerates which are owned by the major shareholders. might they be Jewish? sure . but MANY other races too. Being Jewish does not equal Zionist. The MS media fails to report ANYTHING that the government does not approve of. There was an election last month in Panama. You hear anything about that. AT ALL? No. Because US interest have a deep footing there. No need to draw attention.
hANOVER fIST says:
June 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am
“But you need to stick to what you can prove.”
Following that logic, all we would hear about is Monica’s stained blue dress.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 10:58 am
@Hanover. I’ve proved that the bulk of the spam is traced to 3 people. Those people were mentioned on JPost as people to follow. They were the first, and only at that time, major news service to promote these 3. It was IMPOSSIBLE for JPost to confirm the profiles as authentic as they JUST JOINED TWITTER hours earlier. And now, JPost has removed their names from that post. WHY are they covering their tracks??
Liqwid11 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
do you know how easy it is to build a lookalike website, tweak some info then take pics of it? It would take a mere 5 minutes. only one of your photos shows the url and even that wouldn’t be enough cause you could fake that too. this is propoganda, nothing else.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
@Liqwid. I was waiting for one like you to come along lol. READ the post. JPost even referred to it! to the three twitterers that they DELETED. ..can i also make a fake google search?? READ the post. The old version of the JPost article is still indexed by google.
Liqwid11 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
but your google search is refering to after the election. you doctored the first one hence leaving out the url unless you can find me a google cache of the first one, I’m claiming bs
Liqwid11 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
and i just love how you conveniently have a freaking screen shot of that page. lol
Fred B says:
June 18th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
“Liqwid11 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
do you know how easy it is to build a lookalike website, tweak some info then take pics of it? It would take a mere 5 minutes. only one of your photos shows the url and even that wouldn’t be enough cause you could fake that too. this is propoganda, nothing else.”
I believe we have ourselves a CONSPIRACY THEORIST here! Come on everyone – pile on!Hey… where are all the megaphone-bots? I thought they were AGAINST conspiracy theories? Does it have to be the ‘right kind’ of conspiracy theory to exist?
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
the screen shot was/is my original article. its been there the whole time! BUT, just to satisfy you, i just updated this post. Check the google search result screen shot (URL on Top) OR, you can see your yourself. Type “StopAhmadi AND IranRiggedElect” into google…look at the JPost link and the words beneath it “Twitter feeds from Iran such as Change For Iran, Stop Ahmadi and Iran Rigged Elect who joined the social network mere hours ago”…then click on the article and you’ll find that text was removed…is google part of this conspiracy to blame JPost?
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
don’t believe your lying eyes lol.
Synthesis says:
June 18th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Investigative journalism unaccompanied by a byline is no kind of journalism at all.
It’s simply propaganda.
Next.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 18th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
so I’ll assume that “Synthesis” is your first name? or is it your last? My name is of no consequence. why don’t you debate the questions raised rather than dismiss it as “Propaganda.”
Barack Odorama says:
June 18th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
@ Synthesis. There is plenty of “investigative journalism” accompanied by a byline that is clear propaganda. See Miller, Judith. Or check out the years of media lies about “Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq” that was promoted by the Mainstream media. Charting Stock’s analysis should be assessed on the merits of its arguments and evidence presented. Judging from all the attacks on this article and others, it must have hit a *little* bit too close to home for some people.
HRW177 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 1:24 am
I think some people may be blowing your findings out of proportion. Some seem to think that it is absolute proof that the elections weren’t rigged and some how the Iranian regime isn’t dictatorial. I’m not Iranian or Israeli, but if the JPost actually did this then that concerns me, but the past and present human rights abuses of the Iranian Regime concern me even more. I definitely think you should press a little harder for answers to your questions. They do seem legitimate to ask. We’ll see what happens.
Simon Hawkin says:
June 19th, 2009 at 2:12 am
You found out there were 3 particularly prolific twitterers, Jerusalem Post could have done the same. Or it could have planted them. It could have been either way. I do not think the argument as presented is sufficiently strong.
richardmacn says:
June 19th, 2009 at 3:52 am
Thank you very much, chartingstocks, for doing some simple work which anyone could have done (but no-one else thought to) and for taking the consequences. I think unbiased observers will note that your evidence is watertight and the conclusions you draw are pretty fair.
But here’s the thing. There are several questions here. First, were the elections fiddled? I’ve seen evidence that does suggest this – Ahmedinejad polled far too highly in Kurdish areas to be credible, apparently. Does it matter? In one sense, no, because Iran is not a democracy. You can’t be a candidate unless you support the Islamic government, which leaves a lot of people effectively disenfranchised. So in that sanse, a deeply flawed system has given a deeply flawed result, what a surprise.
So why the attention? The US and Israel have had an agenda w.r.t. Iran for some years now, and they have had teams at work inside the country for some time.
The question therefore, becomes, how much of what we’re seeing is the result of CIA/Mossad manipulation? That’s the really tricky part, because Iran has clearly got tensions between the religious and secular sides and one wonders how ripe the country was for CIA interference.
I guess Iranians have forgotten what it was like under the Shah and are ready to fall for the same scams – it’s fifty years and more since Mossadegh.
pam says:
June 19th, 2009 at 4:58 am
I do not see many peasants or farmers among the middle class rioters, too busy toiling their fields and eating the potatoes Ahmadinejad handed out, so ladies, off with the headscarves and boogie your nights away in more nightckubs, in your dreams
Barack Odorama says:
June 19th, 2009 at 7:18 am
For those Westerners here shedding crocodile tears about democracy or human rights in Iran, how do you answer for the crimes that the West (particularly, America, Britain, Europe, and Australia) is guilty of in Iraq or Afghanistan–where all told over a million people have been murdered and millions more maimed, impoverished, or refugeed thanks to your benevolent wars for freedom and democracy?
Indeed, the West long ago hijacked the ideas of freedom, democracy, and human rights as political pretexts for its imperial wars, regime changes, and lust for power. Your moral legitimacy and pretensions to champion these principles are thus long dead, finished, done–try as you might to deceive yourself and others otherwise.
“September 2007 – More than 1,000,000 Iraqis murdered”
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?
Crimes of the Century: Occupation & Contaminating Iraq with Depleted Uranium
NewsId=78http://www.brusselstribunal.org/pdf/DU-Azzawi2.pdf
COMMEMORATION. Sixth Year of US Invasion: Iraq: Deaths Rise, Pretense We Care Fades
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12853
Barack Odorama says:
June 19th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Reposting of the linked articles above:
“Crimes of the Century: Occupation & Contaminating Iraq with Depleted Uranium”
http://www.brusselstribunal.org/pdf/DU-Azzawi2.pdf
“September 2007 – More than 1,000,000 Iraqis murdered”
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=78
One Of The Last FREE LiveStocks Will Be Tomorrow 1-2PM EST, Focusing On How To Short Sell Penny Stocks says:
June 19th, 2009 at 9:46 am
[...] JPost Removes the Evidence and Issues a Response #IranElection JPost Removes the Evidence and Issues a Response #IranElectionWednesday, June 17, 2009 17:30 Posted in category Politics In response to our recent post, which traced the bulk of the #IranElection twitter spam back to an article in JPost rather than “Iranian Students”, the Jerusalem newspaper has removed the evidence by altering their June 14th article (luckily, we kept the screenshot). JPost has also written a response to our allegations.We argued that the onslaught of #IranElection tweets m Share and Enjoy: [...]
HRW177 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Barack Odorama, the Iraq War is a tragedy, but I will not take blame for a war I didn’t start, support, or take part in. Yes, the US and others have misused documents like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the past, which is definitely wrong and not acceptable. I am a teenager who has never been able to vote, but I’m aware of these past sins. The west cannot be blamed for all of the problems in these countries though. Besides, do two wrongs make a right? Clearly the Iranian theocracy doesn’t care about human rights. Look Bush is out of office, while Khamenei gets to stay in office for life. In America you can criticize government organizations like the CIA severely as you are now doing and not face prison time and torture as you would in Iran. My moral legitimacy is not gone because I am my own man. I’m not the US government or Bush. I don’t believe Bush went in with genuine intentions and his plan was horrible. He used the non-existent WMDs to rally support more so than Hussein’s human rights abuses. Perhaps, if Bush had actually had a plan and had a true coalition behind him all of these deaths could have been avoided and Saddam Hussein could have still been removed. Regardless, we should not be slaves to the past. If the CIA is behind this then they deserve our criticism, but there is still no reason to defend the Iranian Regime. I’m sure there have been errors in Afghanistan, but there were enormous problems going into it as well and some of these problems are still evident. For example, last year an Afghan journalist was going to be executed for circulating an article that calls for women’s rights, but he was spared this fate through pressure from the outside. UK’s Independent started a petition and a letter-writing campaign to Karzai. I truly am against human rights abuses wherever they may occur. Obama should stop with these military commissions, wire-tapping, and finalize the ban on torture (issued executive order against torture, but task force he appointed on it hasn’t finished with details). He has at least tried to close Gitmo, but I believe he can still do better. It also looks like we’ll leave Iraq soon (I know we’re still going to have some troops there though), which will probably be beneficial to both countries.
Anon says:
June 19th, 2009 at 11:01 am
So suppose it’s true that Isreal is taking an active interest in what’s going on in Iran. I’d actually be very surprised if the Israelis were sitting on their hands or playing sudoku all week. So suppose we grant that. NOTHING FOLLOWS. It certainly doesn’t follow that what’s going on in Iran is the result of Israeli intervention “rather than” domestic events. Look: if the Jerusalem Post were powerful enough to instigate massive demonstrations 1500 km away at a whim then they would have altered the entire map of mid-east politics years ago. So cut the conspiracy theories and try some thoughtful analysis for a change. How about this question: is a Mousavi victory good for Likud? Suggested answer: NO. Why? Well, that one will require some real thought on your part.
Fred B says:
June 19th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Anon says:
June 19th, 2009 at 11:01 am “…
So cut the conspiracy theories and try some thoughtful analysis for a change.”
Anon, chartingstocks at least gave some evidence to back his theory. Dismissing what he has found as ‘conspiracy theory’ can be as easily applied to those that think the election was rigged with very little evidence as of yet – which also makes them CONSPIRACY THEORISTS! Using your logic, the rioters should “cut the conspiracy theories and try some thoughtful analysis for a change”. But you don’t apply the same logic to them as you have chartingstocks (you don’t even refute his evidence, other than saying it is conspiracy theory) – which means you are either brainwashed to believe two contradictory things at the same time or you are a liar with an agenda who knows he is being duplicitous in his ‘thoughtful analysis’. Suggested answer: The former…
Fred B says:
June 19th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
It looks like the BBC was cropping photos to make a rally for Ahmadinejad look like a rally for Mousavi (They claim it was an accident – but only after a ‘chartingstock’-type blogger pointed it out). Also, in comment 8 of this article, a poster found a picture for an Ahmadinejad appearance at a soccer rally posted on The Atlantic (Andrew Sullivans blog?) as a rally for Mousavi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/06/what_really_happened.html
The more evidence I see like chartingstocks and these deceptive use of photos for western consumption – the more I feel we are being conditioned to back a coup in Iran. There would be no love lost for Ahmadinejad or the Mullahs from me, but what would the Iranians get in their place? If history is a lesson (1953), and the alleged rigged election and potential coup are outside influences – then the Iranian people are out of the frying pan and into the fire. As for the guys that found these deceptive photos and chartingstock here, keep up
the great work – we along w/ most in the world only want the truth.
I am still waiting on evidence the election was rigged.
Barack Odorama says:
June 19th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
@ HRW177
The Anglo-American aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan are not merely tragedies nor are they a case of “errors being made,” as you put it. Nor are they a case of “past sins.” This type of rhetoric is the standard alibi that Westerners always use to minimize what is in fact is one of the West’s most recent outrageous crimes: the Western War of Terror.
And the point about bringing these issues up is to question the credibility of the West AND ITS CITIZENS (particularly, aggressor nations like America) in claiming to support “democracy and human rights” in Iran. Indeed, these genocidal Western wars fundamentally give lie to the very moral legitimacy of so-called Western liberal democracy in general. In practice, Western liberal democracy is nothing more than a pretext for Western regime change, conquest, and subjugation of other nations. This is true with respect to Western benevolent “concern” about Iran. The massive crimes that the West is guilty of in Iraq and Afghanistan are but the latest reminders.
And yes, citizens of the USA and West are responsible for the crimes their democratic regimes commit. After all, WHO ELECTED, SUPPORTED, AND PUT INTO POWER THESE REGIMES–BUT THE PEOPLE? In a democracy, the people are sovereign *by definition.* They have a regime by the people, for the people, and of the people. So when the American regime commits war crimes around the world, the American people are ultimately responsible. In fact, you could say that America is a war criminal regime of the people, by the people, and for the people.
That is one of the responsibilites of being a vaunted liberal democracy, which many Westerners curiously attempt to dodge even as they arrogantly pontificate about democracy in other countries.
HRW177 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Genocidal? Do you have evidence that Bush went into Afghanistan to commit a genocide against the Afghan people? Of course, Bush is a religious zealot, so it wouldn’t surprise me that much, but the Taliban itself did collaborate with Al-Qaeda by all indications. Also, why does the blame always only go to the west? Imperialism isn’t/wasn’t a purely western phenomenon nor are human rights abuses. Criticizing the west alone isn’t going to help the people suffering in Iran currently. Again, it sounds cheesy, but we can’t be slaves to the past. We should study and learn from it, but we will get no where if all we do is participate in an endless blame game. Two wrongs do not make a right either, which is something Khamenei in Iran seems to forget. The way the wars were fought has been a failure, but that doesn’t mean it was wrong to go into these nations. Of course, it shouldn’t be the US making these decisions alone though. We should remember the words of Thomas Paine who stated in The Rights of Man that “My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.” Bush probably didn’t have the proper intentions, went in basically alone, didn’t understand what he was getting into (he didn’t know about Sunni/Shia split), and all of this resulted in a dreadful plan. This was definitely irresponsible of Bush and has contributed to the many deaths in Iraq, but the suicide bombers and radical Islamists must also be held responsible. Western liberal democracy doesn’t have to be used as a pretext for regime change though. There is nothing inherently wrong with principles like freedom of speech, the press, etc. It is wrong that the US in the past has denied others these rights by installing dictators. In some cases these installations were done out of pure greed and in others it was done out of genuine, but misguided fear of other ideologies like communism. It’s true that the government of the US is largely elected by the people, but to be fair politicians often say one thing and then do another. This can’t always be anticipated. The US clearly has its problems, but then again so does every nation. I myself am still in high school, so I have never been able to vote. I hope one day to either enter into a post in the State Department or to work for a Human Rights Organization. Either way I suspect I won’t like all that I see and experience, but I myself am committed to human rights. Sorry if I sound self-righteous, but I’m passionate about this. It is my belief that governments should point out the flaws in other governments in the interest of correction so as to aid in the establishment of a more just global community. In the case of Iran it is my belief that Iranians like all people in the world are entitled to full freedom of speech, expression, the press, etc. Right now they do not have these rights as the regime has brutally persecuted political dissidents, homosexuals, women, the Bahai, the irreligious, and journalists. At least in the US we have the ability to criticize the government without fear of reprisal and follow the religion or lack there of of our choosing. It is time that we stop denying others these rights and stick up for those who want them. Once again I apologize if I sound arrogant or self-righteous.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
@HRW Bush had every intention of magnifying the shia/sunny divide…It’s standard operating procedure for an empire..we’ve been doing that for years…divide the people and make them kill one another..”It’s true that the government of the US is largely elected by the people”..you believe that?? Presidents are manufactured by the MEDIA…ask any supporter of Ron Paul and they’ll tell you how the media can destroy a candidacy. ..and I agree, we did commit genocide..AGAIN…1 million Iraqi’s are dead because of the war..and another million died before we even entered the country thanks to our sanctions…I call that genocide in a country with a population of 16 million….I wont even go into the 5 million we killed in Vietnam..or the 25% of the N. Korean population we killed..
Barack Odorama says:
June 19th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
@HRW177 “The way the wars were fought has been a failure, but that doesn’t mean it was wrong to go into these nations.”
This is classic rationalization. American wars of aggression may be failures in the way they were fought, but that doesn’t mean that they were wrong! But of course, you refuse to admit that the USA engaged in wars of aggression. Apparently, you still believe in the offical American lies about “Weapons of Mass Destruction” or the phony War against Terrorism–wars which have killed over 1 million people in BOTH Iraq and Afghanistan. And your rhetoric about how we “can’t be slaves to the past” is just doublespeak for “Get over it. it’s all in the past. Water under the bridge.” The only problem is that these things are not in the past. These American killngs are ongoing and in the present:
Military Admits “Errors” in Civilian Bombing in Afghanistan, But Still Defends the Attack http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/04-10
“I hope one day to either enter into a post in the State Department or to work for a Human Rights Organization. Either way I suspect I won’t like all that I see and experience, but I myself am committed to human rights. Sorry if I sound self-righteous, but I’m passionate about this. ”
You will fit in perfectly as a State Department “Human Rights advocate.” You are have the requisite talents for moral self-righteousness, double-standards when pontificating about “human rights,” and most importantly a true believer in that religion known as American Exceptionalism. A bright future awaits you in Foggy Bottom!
HRW177 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Bush may or may not have been aware of the distinction (see http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ambassador_bush_didnt_know_there_were_two_sects_of_islam/), but I’m sure his advisors were. Can you point me to the evidence that Bush wanted Iraqis to fight amongst themselves? Not saying it doesn’t exist, but it would be helpful. Well, I was going along with what he was saying about the US being a democracy and that as a result the people are accountable for what their government does as well. Yes, the media plays a role, but the US media on the whole is pretty diverse . Although, I must say that the mainstream media is very biased when dealing with the candidates like Kucinich and Paul. This was especially apparent in the debates, which just isn’t fair imo. I don’t agree with those actions, so I can’t defend them, but the blame doesn’t rest solely on the US for these happenings. For example, the suicide bombers and radicals in Iraq must take some of the blame for the deaths of those Iraqi civilians as well. I realize that many were just fighting against invasion though. Just getting back to Iran none of this tells me that I shouldn’t stand against the current Iranian regime. As it stands now the IRI constitution and its penal code provides the basis for many of the abuses of the current regime such as the persecution of the Bahai who aren’t a protected religious minority in Article 13. Thanks for staying respectful and I look forward to a response.
chartingstocks1 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
It’s fine to stand against the current regime. I don’t think they are the evil beasts the media makes them out to be. i have yet to see ahmad say or do anything against our country…and why are we focused on Iran? Saudi Arabia is FAR WORSE of a repressive regime, but their our allies so you dont hear much about that….as for the Iraq question..go look into the reports of UK and US soldiers caught on a death squad mission by Iraqi police dressed up as muslims …thank you also for keeping respectful
HRW177 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Yes, I agree about Saudi Arabia and Egypt. It sickens me that we support these regimes. I hope one day I can make a difference in US diplomacy. I have seen Ahmadi say some things about our country, but you are right he hasn’t taken any action against us, but in his own country the human rights situation has gotten worse since he has become President (http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iran0908web_0.pdf and http://www.realite-eu.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=9dJBLLNkGiF&b=2315291&ct=6447799) . Regardless of the election results the people have a legitimate reason to protest.
HRW177 says:
June 19th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Barack Odorama, please calm down. You are obviously passionate about this as well. My word choice was poor in that comment. I already acknowledged in a previous post that Bush said the non-existent WMDs were his main reason for wanting to go to war with Iraq. Yes, Bush was wrong for going into Iraq because he didn’t have the rights intentions as we’ve already gone over. I don’t think it necessarily would have been wrong if Bush had actually wanted to genuinely save the Iraqis from Hussein’s abuses and if he had had more international support, which likely would have made the war go more smoothly. I also acknowledged that Bush was irresponsible for going in without a concrete plan because this led to the death of even more people. I am against these bombings if they are killing civilians. Obviously they should conduct the war with more regard for the lives of innocent civilians. My “slaves to the past” remark only acknowledges a reality. What’s done is done, but if abuses are still going on like the bombings of these civilians then they should be stopped.
Free Press says:
June 19th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
[...] A co vyplouvá na povrch, je zajímavé a bohužel příznačné. Jak například zjistil server Charting Stocks, na třicet tisíc přístupů na Twitter, jejichž autoři se vydávali za íránské studenty a [...]
Barack Odorama says:
June 20th, 2009 at 12:36 am
@ HRW177
You amuse me, son. Like I said, you are well
on your well to being a State Department “human rights advocate.” You have all the contrived rationalizations and doublethink down pat. Your argument boils down to critizing the *manner* in which America (not just Bush, BTW) wages its wars of aggression against Iraq or Afghanistan–and not the fact of American aggression itself, which you of course cannot bring yourself to admit.
Like many current Obama regime flacks, you don’t have a problem with American aggression per se, you just wish that it had “more international support” or that it had “gone more smoothly” or that it had been done with more genuine intentions to save Iraqis from Saddam Hussein’s abuses (who was formerly a US stooge it should be remembered)!
LIke many Americans, you suffer from an almost religious-like belief in America’s moral virtue and good intentions–no matter how much this belief is contradicted by reality or America’s murderous history. This mentality is called American Exceptionalism and is what enables Proud Americans to rationalize and support successive American regimes’ sundry crimes.
Former US Secretary of State Madeline Albright put it best when asked about the 100,000s of Iraqi children killed by the USA-led economic sanctions against Iraq in the 1990s: ‘We Think the Price Is Worth It.’
HRW177 says:
June 20th, 2009 at 1:06 am
Barack Odorama, I don’t think the US is particularly special and that is why I call for international support. The US shouldn’t invade countries like Iraq unless there is a legitimate reason (i.e. there is an attack on the US by that country or there is reliable information of an imminent attack) and if it is over human rights abuses then it should be an international effort (an individual nation’s human rights abuses should be dealt with by that nation alone or on the international level). Going at it alone is ineffective as evidenced by Iraq, although in this case the reasons for going to war were false and there was probably ill-intent there as well. I want the US to act in accordance with human rights and in cooperation with other nations. When did I ever say whatever the US government does is in accordance with human rights and is morally virtuous? Clearly forcibly taking away land from the Native Americans and decimating them wasn’t morally virtuous and I realize that. I would like for the US to always be morally virtuous , but I would like for this to be the case in all nations. The goal should be to live in harmony with other nations wherein each protects fundamental freedoms like freedom of speech, the press, etc. within its borders. Either that or a truly global nation. We’re far away from that at the moment and of course perfection is impossible, but I believe this should be our goal. Of course, I wish the Iraq War had gone more smoothly because if it had many lives probably would have been saved. I admit invading Iraq as we did was wrong though.
Barack Odorama says:
June 21st, 2009 at 3:18 am
@ HRW117
Since you somewhat admit that America is based upon the theft and occupation of Native American land, will you accept that other nations have a right to fund, sponsor, and support Native Indian struggles (including guerrilla war) to oppose the American Empire? How about the international funding and sponsorship of dissident groups in the USA like socialists or anarchists or the various militia movements?
Hell, how about a “Colored Revolution” in America? Since the USA is currently engaged in destabilizing … er “promoting demcoracy” in Iran, surely the rest of the world should return the favor to America. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
BTW, it is an *open secret* that the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen; they were coup d’etats in everything but name.
The stolen election of 2004
http://www.iefd.org/articles/stolen_election_2004.php
Was the 2004 Election Stolen? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/10586714/was_the_2004_election_stolen
None dare call it stolen:
Ohio, the election, and America’s servile press
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/08/0080696
Proof: Israeli Effort to Destabilize Iran Via Twitter #Iran Election « INTIFADA says:
June 21st, 2009 at 12:19 pm
[...] JPost removes the evidence and issues a [...]
Jeebus Crist says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:55 pm
I notice your piece never once mentions the considerable evidence that people using Twitter to get information out of Iran have been blocked, shut down, beaten, and arrested. Surely that’s not why the three names were taken down – to protect people. Must be an evil consipracy.
Exactly the kind of drivel I’d expect from someone whose chose profession is mindlessly prognosticating on the unpredictable stock market.
HRW177 says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Jeebus, that’s a good point, but to be fair the JPost in their response never explicitly stated why they took the names down. That could very likely be the reason they’d give though.
HRW177 says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Here’s a good roundup of analyses of the election data: http://www.pollster.com/blogs/roundup_analyses_of_fraud_in_i.php
chartingstocks1 says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=98794§ionid=351020101
“Iran’s Guardian Council rules out the possibility of nullifying the country’s June 12 Presidential election, saying there has been no record of any major irregularity. “
HRW177 says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:09 pm
They admitted that 50 towns exceeded 100% voter turnout and that this (may have?) caused a 3 million vote increase/swing and that isn’t a major irregularity? Also, did you read any of the analyses, which I’m sure the Iranian regime wouldn’t give the time of day. What makes you trust the Guardian Council when they are part of the theocratic problem in Iran?
HRW177 says:
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:31 pm
It’s also important to note that Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, a hard-liner and open supporter of Ahmadinejad, is the chairman of the Guardian Council.
Israeli Effort to Destabilize Iran Via Twitter #IranElection « NaturallyMadNews says:
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:30 am
[...] JPost removes the evidence and issues a [...]
Spraakloos.nl | De Zapruder Inc. Maandagmorgen briefing (Week 26) says:
June 29th, 2009 at 9:26 am
[...] staan de opgeblazen westerse media-aandacht, inclusief hijgerige politici, de dubieuze Iraanse twitteraars, de “gelekte resultaten“ door “een ambtenaar die door een [...]
Ιραν: Επανάσταση, «Πράσινο» Πραξικόπημα, ή Προήμιο Ισραηλινής επίθεσης; | News.kozaninet.gr says:
July 10th, 2009 at 9:07 am
[...] Μια αναζήτηση μέσω google οδήγησε τον χρήστη σε άρθρο της Jerusalem Post που δημοσιεύτηκε την Κυριακή 14 Ιουνίου και είχε ως θέμα τον ρόλο του twitter στις “εξέγερση“ στο Ιραν. Στο άρθρο η εφημερίδα έδινε τα ονόματα των τριών αυτών χρηστών, που είχαν δημιουργηθεί την ΠΡΟΗΓΟΥΜΕΝΗ ημέρα. Ουσιαστικά η εφημερίδα διαφήμιζε τους συγκεκριμένους χρήστες! Όταν κοινοποιήθηκε η μικρή έρευνα του χρήστη, η Jerousalem Post τροποποίησε το άρθρο σβήνοντας την αναφορά στους χρήστες αυτούς (Φωτογραφίες του πριν και μετά)! Περισσότερα και πηγή εδώ. [...]
afsaneh says:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
To those who like to call the protest in Iran is being supported by Israel
You are underestimating the braverly of people of Iran and their anger toward their regime.
In fact, these people’s agenda isn’t to only support Moussavi but only show their frustration toward their government
Yes, you might be right. There might be few protestors who are gathered with support of Israel, there might also be some who are supported by communist parties.
But those are only fews that don’t’ count These are the youngsters who only want “Democracy”. Of course, when there are rallies like that, opportunists join for their own agenda just like now some Iranian outside of U.S that are part of communist party or supporters of monarchy that are also yelling for their own agenda.
But as an Iranian, I know that my people don’t want communist party neither the Mojahedeen nor Israel. They want a free, peaceful Iran.
And of course just like you are accusing the voice of Iranian people the support of Israeli government I can as well accuse you that you are either anti Israel or pro Iranian government.
alice says:
July 26th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Just found this article. Kat and others give reasonable answers. Anyway these twitterers are still there and also, I think it would be possible to prove who they are if necessary. What’s going on in Iran is disgusting and I’m even ashamed that there isn’t more response from official levels. It’s a delicate political situation but from human rights (abus) point of view, anyone, whatever their political interests can protest. If they don’t, they are criminals same as Iranian theocrates.
Problem seems to be, there’s no left alive or not in prison who could form a democratic gvt with the support of majority. And if those who are opposition today ever take place, how can they prosecute those in power today because they were also guilty of human rights abuses, weren’t they ?
Sibel Edmonds' Boiling Frogs Post | Home of the Irate Minority says:
October 21st, 2009 at 7:21 pm
[...] in Iran. The defenders of democracy twitterized the ensuing protests, including some twitters from questionable sources. This leads one to wonder how much outside support for a Moussavi-faced regime change had to do [...]